The fuss over Warhorn Media’s interview with Dalrock is dying down, at least for me. Everybody’s had their chance to speak and matters have devolved into each side doing their own theater. It was interesting that Pastor Tim Bayly came along and weighed in, however, because his defense of a old debate point actually made him look worse today. Because this is a separate issue from the actual interview, I make it a post on my blog. Quoting Bayly from the following link:
https://sanity.warhornmedia.com/t/into-the-manosphere/661/19
I like good back-and-forth, but not ever anonymously.particularly when for fifteen years I have suffered much for the Name of the Lord Jesus and His Words and know how privileged I am for doing so and how much strength it lends to the work to which all believers are called.
Bayly claims to be a super-Christian survivor of the front lines of spiritual war. A dubious claim for any clergyman with a pension and book deal but he gives an example:
…At the same time as I was writing, a student at IU decided to go into the Navy as an officer responsible for nuclear reactors. I loved her and told her she should not do so. We’re still friends and she’s always known I think she was not obeying God in this. Full stop.
This is just one of many, many examples of my fulfilling my responsibility as husband, father, and pastor to say “no” to women, and rebuke them.
I agree with Bayly that Snowflake did evil in the sight of God. Original Sin’s curse upon Eve was that she would envy men their “male privilege”, to use modern terminology, and Reactor Officer is a top-status job in the Navy. She’s obviously feral and seeking authority over men, not to mention almost certainly unqualified for that kind of highly technical work.
God does not want a woman to have authority over men. That’s an ironclad rule for the Church and the exceptions permitted in the secular world, for example Lydia the cloth merchant and widows continuing their husband’s business affairs, are not comparable to a military officer’s power of life and death over his troops. It’s not acceptable to believe God hates female leadership in the Church and approves of it everywhere else. But how to handle Snowflake’s rebellion against male headship?
Bayly: “God doesn’t want you to do that.”
Snowflake: “I refuse to obey God!”
Bayly: “I still love you, just like Jesus does! Let’s be friends.”
Pastor GunnerQ: “God doesn’t want you to do that.”
Snowflake: “I refuse to obey God!”
GunnerQ: “We’re done, you disobedient witch! How dare you claim to be a Christian yet live as God’s enemy! I will have you publicly shamed. Don’t put one foot in my church ever again.”
See the difference? One of us acts like God is Real and the other acts like Love is God. This is why Churchianity is utter, total filth. It won’t ever tell a woman no and even when the word “no” is actually spoken, consequences are prohibited.
I don’t care about Bayly authoring a General Assembly statement in 2002 or whenever. People can change over fifteen years. By his example today, however, Pastor Tim Bayly is as Cuck as he ever was. He should have read the riot act to Snowflake, then when she proceeded in feminist rebellion against God, held her up as a bad example to the general Church and sent her a courtesy link to guarantee humiliation.
Biblical Precedent, Mister Oedipus of 1 & 2 Corinthians.
Pastor Bayly rebuked a woman for disobeying God and when she didn’t change her evil behavior, bragged about still being friends with her.
I’ll end with this quote from the same link:
One last thing: for fifteen years I’ve been online saying that the only thing the feminists have given men is the right to cry, and Jesus already gave us this right.
The definitive behavior of Churchians is self-sabotage. Bayly is probably trying to be funny but saying feminism is useless because Jesus already gave men the right to cry like women is… very consistent with Bayly not laying down the thunder on Reactor Officer Snowflake.
For the sake of God, male humanity, the United States Navy and her own soul, I hope Snowflake washed out of the nuclear program in shame and dishonor.
I quit trying to follow all the He Said – He Saids about time of Boxer’s schism with Cane. Or maybe it was before that, I don’t know. I’ve even tried to go back and piece together what the respective arguments are/were and can’t bring myself to make the emotional/temporal investment. Dalrock banned a guy named Matthew King a few years ago, and I was never quite able to work out exactly what the deal was there either, but I was new to the forums then. Maybe I just don’t have the patience or the intellectual capacity for it. Each one goes to his corner with his disciples and declares victory. But this exchange is about enough to make me stop reading blogs altogether. Probly won’t tho.
I knew I’ve heard it before. It was on the playground, in kindergarten:
“Ha ha, I bogarted you!”
“Nuh-uh, I bogarted YOU!”
“Did not!”
“Did so!”
“Your mama”
“Your daddy”
“Your greasy granny”
“Your whole generation”
As for Bayly, I don’t trust any public preacher, which is pretty much any preacher by definition. In any case any preacher who is not supporting himself independently. Not that I’ve ever met one who was.
I saw a facebook comment (which was said in a joke context) that encapsulates this brilliantly.
‘It’s mean to give women advice.’
Even when it comes to God’s commands over her feelz.
Several points
– bayly .suffering. has nothing to do with now
– it should remain current as an issue: bayly and co are pushing Evangel Presbytery, an attempt at forming a new denomination (to prey upon the PCA, which is falling apart). The timing of his controversy is providential.
– the PCA has been refusing to clarify the role of men and women for over a decade now. What men of character to live in moral ambiguity
https://warhornmedia.com/2019/01/29/a-cordial-invitation-to-evangel-presbytery/
I’m glad to see your pastoral advice to snowflake because it ties in with my wanting to ask you to expand about your post at Boxer’s about church leadership not wanting to exercise your gifts. This post of yours ties it all together.
Did you reflect on how a place like Bayly’s church would have never allowed you to share their power with them. So it was probably similar at the church you attended and commented on.
The elders at my church are always in long, unnecessary and effeminate meetings, and always saying they want more leaders and help with the burdens they carry. But do they? I think they guard their respectability with a great amount of their strength and would be deathly frightened by a man who could undercut their influence and lift. You were such a threat to them probably.
Do you speak in a soft voice, sit for hours patiently, prioritize others emotions, know about all the new movies, like to laugh about sports teams, and don’t have any opinions that aren’t popular with teenage girls? If so, they would’ve loved you and maybe it’s your breath?
Swanny River: “Did you reflect on how a place like Bayly.s church would have never allowed you to share their power with them. So it was probably similar at the church you attended and commented on.”
I did what Bayly and Friends demand. I gave multiple church leaders my driver’s license, applied for church membership, passed background checks as requested, et cetera. When clergy knew who I was and where I lived and how long I’d been attending and the makework I’d done to prove my bona fides, they didn’t heed me the slightest bit more than when I was a nobody off the streets. Nothing about Bayly and Friends makes me think they’d be different.
Notice Bayly first stepped into the comments to say publicly that his own ministry had done wrong while doing what they were set up to do. He can’t trust his own bootlickers. Look at what he wrote immediately preceding the OP’s first quote:
After putting up three posts and a tweet about Nadia Bolz-Weber and Gloria Steinem, I come to Sanity to see if there are any questions directed to me and find this thread. Which leads me to go to the podcast itself and read the stuff between Nathan and Mr. Anonymous Dalrock. Let me say here that I never knew Mr. Anonymous would be addressed, let alone interviewed on Warhorn, and when I found out I was not pleased. This for a number of reasons I won.t go into here, but not in one iota because I think Mr. Anonymous is right or has drawn blood with his critique of me or what I.ve written. I like good back-and-forth, but not ever anonymously…
A real leader’s response would have been publicly “This is excellent initiative on Warhorn’s part and I’m enjoying the discussion” and privately “Remember, I said no talking to the pseudonymous?” The nervous AMOG says “I didn’t know what my guys were doing and was displeased to find out.”
Modern clergy are so insecure that they can’t let go the reins of power.
Your tale of being cast to the side is one I am familiar with. I threw myself into what they wanted from me, work projects, driving a van and helping with ESL. They didn’t reach out to me for being a deacon.
The dozen or so elders we have are almost all over 6 feet tall. It’s similar to secular dating sites with the women using height as a primary sorter and sense of security.
I hope you write more about it. You are exposing something churchian and feminine about the Christian culture with it.
Gunnerq,
I couldn’t find your comments on Boxer’s site. What’s going on?
Try the link below. My complaint against Church leaders today is that they don’t give men the chance to use our abilities for God within the Church. Not merely a lack of good leadership.
https://v5k2c2.androsphere.net/2019/02/18/dishonest-dalrock-thinks-hes-winning-again/#comment-5041
“They don’t give men the chance to use their abilities for God.”
I think that is an important point. Is it unavoidable? To me, that waste seems very wrong, and something I would love to hear pastors’ opinions on. They are always wanting more help, so why don’t they recognize it is their own dismissiveness that is part of the problem? They don’t seem to want other leaders around, just other respectable men whom will be docile.
Lots of leading boring saltless co-ed bible studies to show “leadership.” All of which they want to culminate in churchgoers going to seminary. It’s as if they think disciples need seminary, or that the Holy Spirit is leading fired up believers into a life of docility.
Church size matters with helping as a leader. I’ve been involved in three larger churches, the smallest with about 400 members/500 regular attenders, so the supply of men probably exceeds the demands. This ties in with Bayly saying his underlings are free to make mistakes. That is respectable to me if they really adhere to that. The RVA and PCA churches I have seen aren’t comfortable with that concept. That is the nice thing about bland, tall, no-boat rocking men, you can count on them to be saltless, and thus, incapable of making embarrassing mistakes.